|  Author | Topic: Bookkeeping and Mathematics (Read 1,302 times) |
Mentalepsy
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|  | Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Thread Started on Feb 27, 2007, 9:10am » | |
I'd like to take a survey on Zodiac's ease of play. Do you feel that record-keeping is too complex (adding up damage bonuses for Techs, for example)? Is there too much math during combat? How smoothly does the game run?
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #1 on Feb 27, 2007, 9:30am » | |
They seem okay to me, but I may not have the best handle on it. Most of the playing time I've had has been with Open RPG, and so I have it do the calculations for me. 
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #2 on Aug 23, 2007, 7:44am » | |
Well, it depends on what you've preprepared, really. If you have equipment for everyone, that they accept, then character creation runs smoothly, and vice versa. Altogether, the combat is somewhat fast, though a bit hard to explain to newer players, and the only really slow part would be with leveling up.
But all in all, it runs at a speed that's acceptable for an RP game, and it is pretty simple to teach, except for the battle system (teaching it is rather difficult).
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Mentalepsy
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #3 on Aug 25, 2007, 7:26pm » | |
Something I propose to alleviate overwrought mathematics in certain situations: Change +X% modifiers to damage rolls to some sort of flat bonus. They could be extra damage dice or a bonus to AP / MAP, for example. This would also help deal with certain scaling issues.
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Çløtï£õth
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #4 on Aug 25, 2007, 7:40pm » | |
Quote:| Something I propose to alleviate overwrought mathematics in certain situations: Change +X% modifiers to damage rolls to some sort of flat bonus. They could be extra damage dice or a bonus to AP / MAP, for example. This would also help deal with certain scaling issues. |
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Hmm...
+X% is something that is simply not present in the rules, and I wish for you to tell me where it is gotten from?
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #5 on Aug 25, 2007, 7:42pm » | |
Switching from D&D, this game is cake in the mathematics and ease of use department.
(Have you SEEN the 3.x Grapple rules?! or the 2nd ed. THAC0???)
Anyway, %s aren't a big deal to me, and I think everything is okay and not in need of much streamlining. Heck, it only takes like a minute and a half to make a monster statblock...
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #6 on Aug 25, 2007, 7:43pm » | |
Quote:
Quote:| Something I propose to alleviate overwrought mathematics in certain situations: Change +X% modifiers to damage rolls to some sort of flat bonus. They could be extra damage dice or a bonus to AP / MAP, for example. This would also help deal with certain scaling issues. |
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Hmm...
+X% is something that is simply not present in the rules, and I wish for you to tell me where it is gotten from? |
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Break Art and Stat Booster techs apply a percentage modifier to stats or damage. The Rage secondary skill grants a 25% damage bonus.
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #7 on Aug 25, 2007, 7:46pm » | |
Quote:| (Have you SEEN the 3.x Grapple rules?! or the 2nd ed. THAC0???) |
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THAC0 was idiotic and counterintuitive, but it was still just basic addition and subtraction of one and two-digit numbers.
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Erathaol
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #8 on Aug 25, 2007, 7:49pm » | |
Quote:
Quote:| (Have you SEEN the 3.x Grapple rules?! or the 2nd ed. THAC0???) |
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THAC0 was idiotic and counterintuitive, but it was still just basic addition and subtraction of one and two-digit numbers. |
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Well, to me, idiocy and counterintuition(tuitiveness?) definitly takes away from 'ease of use'.
"Alright, everyone, here's a 2nd ed session schedule"
1st: Teach the Players About THAC0
2nd: Teach the Players About THACO cont.
3rd: Make Characters
4th: Everyone enters the tavern...play begins...
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #9 on Aug 25, 2007, 7:53pm » | |
I found that ZODIAC works great play by post, since you have as much time as you want to calculate. Plus, computers come with calculators on them, so lazy people have no excuse for math.
I haven't played any ZODIAC offline, though.
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #10 on Aug 25, 2007, 7:55pm » | |
Quote:Well, to me, idiocy and counterintuition(tuitiveness?) definitly takes away from 'ease of use'.
"Alright, everyone, here's a 2nd ed session schedule"
1st: Teach the Players About THAC0
2nd: Teach the Players About THACO cont.
3rd: Make Characters
4th: Everyone enters the tavern...play begins... |
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I didn't say it was easy to use, just that it was easy to calculate. Both are important, and I've long felt that Zodiac's mathematics, although meticulously developed with game balance and FF aesthetics in mind, are not as tabletop-friendly as they ought to be.
However, I agree that mathematics aside, Zodiac is much less of a headache to run than D&D (especially pre-3rd edition when nothing was consistent with anything else).
For my edification, what about Zodiac do you feel makes it easy to run and play, including resolution of mathematics?
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #11 on Aug 25, 2007, 7:58pm » | |
Hmm... Well, if we can keep it at 25%, 50%, 75%, 1/3, etc., we will/would have no problem, except by those who don't know percentages and fractions, i.e. 5-6th grade Math. 
UPDATE: Didn't read your question, Ment, I was typing the first answer. I'd have to say the generally simple rules/math, and definitely the lack of need for 100s of d6s, d20s, etc.
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Erathaol
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #12 on Aug 25, 2007, 8:01pm » | |
Overall Game Balance > Minor Adjustments in Ease of Use, in my opinion
What makes it easy is that...there just aren't that many mechanics. You take a die, you add stuff, you compare it to a number. There aren't any opposed rolls or obscure situation modifiers or anything. The game is pretty much on your character sheet, and that's it.
Also, the abstraction helps.
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"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before." ~Mae West
"I sure love killing, and painful killing is one of my five most favourite kinds of killing." ~Pompey the Half-Elf |
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #13 on Aug 25, 2007, 8:08pm » | |
Quote:| Overall Game Balance > Minor Adjustments in Ease of Use, in my opinion |
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Well, here's another question: are break arts and stat boosters currently balanced?
Quote:| Hmm... Well, if we can keep it at 25%, 50%, 75%, 1/3, etc., we will/would have no problem, except by those who don't know percentages and fractions, i.e. 5-6th grade Math. |
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It's not a hard concept, no. I'm just trying to ramp up the speed of the mental math; it's all about incremental improvements. I don't have a problem approximating 378 x 1.33 in my head (500 is close, and close is good enough for this game), but a lot of people do have trouble quickly resolving mental math of that order.
Quote:
UPDATE: Didn't read your question, Ment, I was typing the first answer. I'd have to say the generally simple rules/math, and definitely the lack of need for 100s of d6s, d20s, etc. |
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You should have seen first edition. That was a mess.
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #14 on Aug 25, 2007, 8:10pm » | |
They seem balanced to me. Especially since you can generally counter one with another.
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #15 on Aug 25, 2007, 8:11pm » | |
No idea!
Honestly, I have no idea how a game designer balances Value of MP, Value of Damage, Value of HP, and still factors in the number of players and monsters likely present in a battle and somehow comes up with balance.
It's a mystery to me.
EDIT: Not to mention the secondary effects...and other effects that could synergize with it...
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"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before." ~Mae West
"I sure love killing, and painful killing is one of my five most favourite kinds of killing." ~Pompey the Half-Elf |
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #16 on Aug 25, 2007, 8:12pm » | |
Well from my figurings, 1 MP = 4-5 HP, 1 DMG = 2 HP, but Idk, seeing as I have an equal lack of a clue. Lol at my post though.
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Mentalepsy
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #17 on Aug 25, 2007, 8:17pm » | |
Quote:No idea!
Honestly, I have no idea how a game designer balances Value of MP, Value of Damage, Value of HP, and still factors in the number of players and monsters likely present in a battle and somehow comes up with balance.
It's a mystery to me.
EDIT: Not to mention the secondary effects...and other effects that could synergize with it... |
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Well, consider this: a high-level (60+) character with several hundred MP can, for only 6 MP, cut a monster's (or all monsters') damage-dealing ability by 25% for 2-5 ticks. Doesn't that seem a tad overpowered? It works at low levels, but at high levels, the fact that it's a percentage makes it scale indefinitely whereas its relative MP cost continually drops.
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #18 on Aug 25, 2007, 8:18pm » | |
Quote:
For my edification, what about Zodiac do you feel makes it easy to run and play, including resolution of mathematics? |
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When playing dnd, I always felt strained to create a character using the rule and classes. The beauty of ZODIAC is that you make your class about your character. This makes role playing more fun and definitely adds freedom.
At the same time though, dnd has a more realistic feel. You always feel a little underpowered (especially at low levels). ZODIAC, as it was made for Final Fantasy roleplaying, gives you a greater feeling of power, although when I ran my first ZODIAC game I made a storyline excuse for their above average abilities (although the game is balanced around it).
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #19 on Aug 25, 2007, 8:22pm » | |
Quote:
Quote:No idea!
Honestly, I have no idea how a game designer balances Value of MP, Value of Damage, Value of HP, and still factors in the number of players and monsters likely present in a battle and somehow comes up with balance.
It's a mystery to me.
EDIT: Not to mention the secondary effects...and other effects that could synergize with it... |
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Well, consider this: a high-level (60+) character with several hundred MP can, for only 6 MP, cut a monster's (or all monsters') damage-dealing ability by 25% for 2-5 ticks. Doesn't that seem a tad overpowered? It works at low levels, but at high levels, the fact that it's a percentage makes it scale indefinitely whereas its relative MP cost continually drops. |
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Hmm... But if we simply change it to a flat rate, that works even less at low levels (too over or too underpowered), and has even a chance to be either at higher levels.
And also, for 6 MP, the monsters could do the same thing. Who said monsters can't fight fire with fire?
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Mentalepsy
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #20 on Aug 25, 2007, 8:28pm » | |
Quote:
Quote:
For my edification, what about Zodiac do you feel makes it easy to run and play, including resolution of mathematics? |
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When playing dnd, I always felt strained to create a character using the rule and classes. The beauty of ZODIAC is that you make your class about your character. This makes role playing more fun and definitely adds freedom. |
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Here's a story that might interest you.
Before Zodiac 1e was released, the game was just a collection of scribblings in a WebRPG text file. And what did we have at that early stage of development?
Premade classes!
That's right, my earliest work on Zodiac was based around the D&D-ish idea of preconfigured character classes. Fighter, Black Mage, Paladin...
I think it was about the time when I was trying to make the Thief class and struggling to come up with a full list of semi-canon abilities for it when I thought "Wait a minute, why am I doing this? This game would be so much better if..."
Since creating Zodiac's freeform character creation system, I have found it suffocating to return to the rigid class system of games like D&D. Sure, yeah, there are all sort of class kits and custom races and Tome & Blood and so on, but as far as I'm concerned, it's all red tape that might get me a little closer to what I want to play, but will never really get me there.
Zodiac is not the system of my dreams - that title will hopefully belong to another project I'm working on, which is not related to Final Fantasy or any other existing IP - but I am very proud of the level of freedom we've achieved.
PS: Welcome to the boards, Raymond.
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Çløtï£õth
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #21 on Aug 25, 2007, 8:39pm » | |
Quote:
Quote:
When playing dnd, I always felt strained to create a character using the rule and classes. The beauty of ZODIAC is that you make your class about your character. This makes role playing more fun and definitely adds freedom. |
|
Here's a story that might interest you.
Before Zodiac 1e was released, the game was just a collection of scribblings in a WebRPG text file. And what did we have at that early stage of development?
Premade classes!
That's right, my earliest work on Zodiac was based around the D&D-ish idea of preconfigured character classes. Fighter, Black Mage, Paladin...
I think it was about the time when I was trying to make the Thief class and struggling to come up with a full list of semi-canon abilities for it when I thought "Wait a minute, why am I doing this? This game would be so much better if..." et cetera....
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If I may ask, what was 1e like?
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Mentalepsy
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #22 on Aug 25, 2007, 9:14pm » | |
Quote:| If I may ask, what was 1e like? |
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Man, I can barely remember. Third edition has been the standard for probably four years now. I've still got the final copies of first and second editions somewhere, though I don't know why. Here are the highlights, as best I can remember (and aided by the news archive):
1) Everything was an order of magnitude higher. We were dealing with four-digit damage rolls in many cases, and we were rolling eight or more dice to get there.
2) Magic was seperate from Techs. We had level-ordered spell lists for black, white and call magic. Some of these were generic spells like Elemental Attack, others were specific. Magic (especially call magic) was also inherently more powerful than Techs of the same level. There were no Tech Points; you learned magic or techs at specific levels. In the very earliest version, tech users only got one tech from each of the eight tech levels.
3) Armor absorbed physical and/or magical damage, instead of adding hit points. I think our damage formula was something like (excessive die roll + attack power - armor) * some stat-based multiple. That was awful. We also had both body and head armor, which have since been consolidated.
4) No distinction was made between command and support skills, they were all lumped under the Minor Abilities moniker. You only got to choose one MA.
5) Speed was a base stat instead of a derived stat... and speed points didn't exist yet. Speed was pretty much initiative, and that was all it did.
6) Characters had "archetypes" - physical, mental or balanced - that determined their HP / MP progression and the type of equipment they could use. Also, there were no automatic stat bonuses at preset levels, and all stat points were discretionary. This meant it was easy to make a character that was severely overdeveloped in one area (say, Magic) and terribly inadequate in another (like Vitality).
7) Light weapons did not add MAP. Rather, they just got more special ability points. To balance this out, you got a permanent bonus to MAP every 5 experience levels. Talk about clumsy.
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #23 on Aug 25, 2007, 9:18pm » | |
Wow.
*speechless at the apparent complexity*
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| | Re: Bookkeeping and Mathematics
« Reply #24 on Aug 25, 2007, 9:26pm » | |
Quote:Wow.
*speechless at the apparent complexity* |
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Things are a bit different now, aren't they? First edition was only out for about six months. Second edition was better, but it was still more similar to first than it was to third.
Some other stuff I remembered from early Zodiac:
1) Remember I said that magic was its own set of rules? Well, the way damage worked meant that low-level magic became utterly trivial at later levels, whereas low-level weapon techs were still an improvement over normal attacks. Integrating magic with techs in 3e put a stop to this.
2) We had geomancy. Terrain was a first edition minor ability that we tried time and time again to balance, but in the end, we finally trashed it.
3) Drain weapons dealt only half damage and healed you for the same amount. Whee.
4) We had this stupid addon for techs called Amplify that... oh, wait.
5) We were hosted on Angelfire. I hate Angelfire.
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